NLL Insider

Mr Boo · #1 09-22-2008, 01:05 PM

After 81 votes, John Grant is leading with 42%, followed by Tavares with 21% and Doyle with 17%. I can't really argue with those choices.

In fourth place with 5% is "Other". Who's not on the list that should be considered?

Centurion · #2 09-22-2008, 01:10 PM

Gary Gait as a player should be up there.......

Mr Boo · #3 09-22-2008, 01:39 PM

That's the point of the original article -- in the generation after the Gaits / Tavares / Marechek / Veltman, who's the best? They left Tavares in there because he's still playing and is still one of the best.

I tried to edit my posting with the link to the nllinsider.com article but it wouldn't let me save it. Here's the link: http://www.nllinsider.com/2008/09/22...is-generation/

RockStar#666 · #4 09-22-2008, 01:46 PM

Re: list that's there - it's about what I'd expect. I guess JT will win by forfeit - At this point, I can't see Grant ever catching any all time or single season scoring record that he doesn't already hold.

Re: Gait - Whether he belongs depends whether you consider him this generation or last generation. I'd say he's last:

-This decade is almost over. Gait retired in the first half of it,

-When he was still playing in this decade, his teams never came close to winning a league title. Choke artists five years straight. Only the Knighthawks had a longer history of "thanks for coming out".

Bottom line - As a player, great play, great numbers, but real glory was long ago.

Re: Other - I'd guess a handful might vote for a Dawson, a Watson, a Steenhuis, a Veltman.....I really can't think of too many others who have been at the top of their game year after year, and deserve to be one of five or ten candidates on a "best of generation" ballot.

BfloGeno · #5 09-22-2008, 01:59 PM

Jr wouldn't have ever caught any of JT's records anyway. at this point it looks like JT will be adding to those stats for at least another 2 years....

chuckster · #6 09-22-2008, 02:41 PM

Again, I have an issue with one of their polls.

To me, generation is defined by age, not by who is still living....or in this case, still participating in something. If that was the case, I'd be the same generation as my 70+ year old parents.

I would subscribe to this breakdown of generations -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generations_(book)

Most established players currently in the NLL were born as Generation Xers (1961-1981). By that generation definition, a player like Mark Steenhuis is in the same generation as Tavares, Grant, Dan Dawson......and Gary/Paul Gait, Jim Veltman, etc. Athan Ianucci is the only one in the list who is not -- he is a Generation Y. That would mean Iannucci should be thrown out, and the Gaits, Veltman, etc should be added for talking about greatest player of a generation, this or any other.

chuckster · #7 09-22-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BfloGeno

Jr wouldn't have ever caught any of JT's records anyway. at this point it looks like JT will be adding to those stats for at least another 2 years....

Actually, if you look at averages.......Grant has averaged 43 goals in 9 seasons for a total of 394 regular season goals. He's 33. If he was healthy and played until he's 40 (like JT will), at his current average Grant would have 702 goals.

JT will have at his current average of 36 goals per year a total of 656 at age 40.

Grant averages just over 3 goals per game in his career, JT just under 3.

If all things were equal, Grant would be on a solid course to break JT's goal career record. But with Grant missing all of this coming season.....and with the type of injury he has, it could be more than 1 season and he may not be the same player for awhile after he comes back......I'd say JT's goal record is safe.

BfloGeno · #8 09-22-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckster

Actually, if you look at averages.......Grant has averaged 43 goals in 9 seasons for a total of 394 regular season goals. He's 33. If he was healthy and played until he's 40 (like JT will), at his current average Grant would have 702 goals.

JT will have at his current average of 36 goals per year a total of 656 at age 40.

Grant averages just over 3 goals per game in his career, JT just under 3.

If all things were equal, Grant would be on a solid course to break JT's goal career record. But with Grant missing all of this coming season.....and with the type of injury he has, it could be more than 1 season and he may not be the same player for awhile after he comes back......I'd say JT's goal record is safe.

So you know for a fact that JT will retire after this year?

chuckster · #9 09-22-2008, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BfloGeno

So you know for a fact that JT will retire after this year?

Nope, just looking at the virtual certainty that JT will play at least 1 more year when I looked at the possibilities.

silvanthalas · #10 09-22-2008, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockStar#666

-This decade is almost over. Gait retired in the first half of it,

This decade still has 2 years left, and Gary Gait only retired 3 years ago.

So, if you want to talk about, as the article did, the LAST 10 YEARS, then you have to include Gait. Not just discount him because it's convenient for the results of the poll.

ND14 · #11 09-22-2008, 05:56 PM

Maybe they should just call the poll "the best currently active player," or "the best player not named Gary Gait."

RockStar#666 · #12 09-22-2008, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvanthalas

This decade still has 2 years left, and Gary Gait only retired 3 years ago.

Splitting hairs. No matter how you slice it, Gait hasn't played since first half and we're well on the way to the end. The upcoming season is the fourth one after Gait's retirement, and there's only one more after that one in the decade. Yesterday's hero.

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvanthalas

.......LAST 10 YEARS.........Gait......

If you really want, Gait can be listed as a separate name so he can split the seventh place vote with every "OTHER" player in the league. Yesterday's hero.

BretMac · #13 09-22-2008, 08:08 PM

haha i just got around to voting and Dan Dawson has taken over johnny tavares at 2nd.. i asked him about it and he said he doesnt deserve to be thier

edit : post 333 wooo

rnsykes · #14 09-22-2008, 08:27 PM

I like the mention of Dallas Eliuk at the end of the article. As a goal keeper, he set the standards that other keepers are measured by. Unfortunately there is no good way to compare Goal tenders to everyone else.

goddessoflax · #15 09-22-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnsykes

I like the mention of Dallas Eliuk at the end of the article. As a goal keeper, he set the standards that other keepers are measured by. Unfortunately there is no good way to compare Goal tenders to everyone else.

I don't think you can truly compare any of these guys and come up with the "very best". They all bring such different things to their team. They create a statistic that can be used as a measurement. And to measure them only by that does them all a diservice. And discounts what a guy like Dallas or Whipper have done. Or that bone crushing hit by a defensenman that changes the game in an instant.

RockStar#666 · #16 09-22-2008, 10:33 PM

In case no one has noticed, you can keep reloading and voting. This poll is not going to be all that scientific. If some kid with a spare hour likes John Grant, Grant will win.

snipeshow · #17 09-22-2008, 11:50 PM

he will win anyways.. that would just make it a landslide

silvanthalas · #18 09-23-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockStar#666

Yesterday's hero.

Somebody's desperate to keep him out of the poll.

mtbf · #19 09-23-2008, 01:07 AM

sham premise anyway if you played against a player you are in the same generation as that player. Should have been titled best player named john grant or best player whos career is over.

ND14 · #20 09-23-2008, 07:33 AM

Wow, Dawson is now in first. So much for this poll...

Not that Dawson isn't a great player but there's no way he deserves to be ahead of Grant and Tavares.

Darksyde · #21 09-23-2008, 07:56 AM

Looks like JT is back in the #1 spot.... *evil grin*

PUNCH ME · #22 09-23-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rnsykes

I like the mention of Dallas Eliuk at the end of the article. As a goal keeper, he set the standards that other keepers are measured by. Unfortunately there is no good way to compare Goal tenders to everyone else.

good point to bring up. Eliuk wrote the book on box lax goal tending. you can compare keepers but how can you compare them to the rest of the field?

Hollywood42 · #23 09-23-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockStar#666

In case no one has noticed, you can keep reloading and voting. This poll is not going to be all that scientific. If some kid with a spare hour likes John Grant, Grant will win.

i just voted for tavares and you can see the ballot stuffing of grant happening a we speak

so this poll is fan favorites and will not prove anything

rnsykes · #24 09-23-2008, 01:13 PM

Wow. Tavares is way out in the lead now.

Jstrlaxn · #25 09-23-2008, 03:36 PM

Lewis Ratcliff should have been on the list:
165g in past 5 years - Only Jr and Dawson are better. 208 assists better than Dawson and Jr.
Jr, Jt, Dawson, Ratcliff if strictly looking at points.

Shawn Williams is another guy that should be on the list as well as Manning.

Merrill should be gassed from the list. Ever really watch his D. He should be an iso target.